John Gall apparently said:
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that worked. The inverse proposition also appears to be true: A complex system designed from scratch never works and cannot be made to work. You have to start over, beginning with a working simple system.
Something I noticed at this year's PyCon is that people want me to make my software more complicated. twill developers want me to unpackage twill's dependencies from twill, and add features that make their lives easier. figleaf developers want to add another layer of features: flexible reporting, "depth" coverage, etc.
I've noticed that experienced developers often have a strong and largely consistent internal model of how things "should be": small chunks of code, configurable, coupled in certain ways, etc. The details vary, of course, and that variation is the focus of intent debates between developers, but there's an awful lot that's implicitly shared in the world view of techies.
What's lacking, however, is a focus on simplicity, both simplicity of use and simplicity of architecture. This is where I think both twill and figleaf shine: they're basically trivial packages that do interesting things, reasonably well. twill is a simple wrapper around mechanize, but it gives you a preconfigured mechanize that can handle 80% or more of what non-AJAX-heavy Web sites do. It's used in what I think are slightly ridiculous numbers: 6000+ downloads in the last year, not counting Debian installs. figleaf is a simple wrapper around sys.settrace, with some attached recording functionality; now that I've tossed about 20% of the Python code, it's even simpler than it was two weeks ago. The code is straightforward to read in most places and I'm working to make it simpler. The coverage storage format is trivial -- a dictionary of sets -- and that makes serializing it and unpickling it equally trivial. I have no idea how many people are using figleaf, but I get a fair amount of interesting e-mail from people when I break things, so I'd guess it's a reasonable number.
I wish I could claim that the simplicity of my packages is a work of genius. Really, it's me being sick of stuff that doesn't work: Every time I try to do something clever, I tie myself into knots. If genius is at work, it's the genius of my own stupidity, where I simply am not smart enough to get complicated things to work. To paraphrase Kernighan, debugging is twice as hard as coding: if you write the code as cleverly as you can, you're by definition not smart enough to debug it. That could be what's going on here.
Anyway, here's the kicker: people can install twill and figleaf. People can understand the internals, people can tweak them, and people can use them -- so people do. I know this because of how little e-mail I get, in comparison to the number of people that casually mention that they're using the tools in conversation! Simplicity turns out to be coupled to usability.
Steve Holden did a "Teach Me Web Testing" tutorial, where the audience tried to (interactively) teach him how to test his Web site. A whole bunch of things went wrong, and we basically ended up with only two things that worked: twill and nose. We had two hours; twill and nose got installed in the first five minutes, and thing went downhill from there. We couldn't get Windmill working, because CherryPy couldn't be easy_installed properly. Selenium RC was triaged because nobody wanted to watch Steve try to install it. Steve already had Selenium IDE installed (and anyway it's a Firefox plugin, so it Just Worked) but we didn't get to the point of installing the static Selenium HTML. I don't know how much of problem was caused by the rampant scotch consumption, but I can pretty much guarantee you that twill and nose can be easy_installed on any platform with virtually no trouble.
Second anecdote: I spent a bit of time talking with some people about building a buildbot replacement that caters to people who just need something simple (N.B., this was separate from the TIP discussion, "Everybody wants a Pony.") The air was full of terms like scalability, and configurability, and interface programmability, and installability. What I felt was lacking was basic comprehension of what I want, nay, need: the twill or figleaf of buildbothood. I want something that is installable and configurable in 5 minutes flat, on the master side, for a simple open source project; the slave side should take 30 seconds or less. Do I really need a binary twisted-sumo package for this??
Why do developers want to write complicated software? Well, everybody loves features. Everybody loves to be clever (although I increasingly aim to achieve cleverness by breadth, not depth ;). Everybody loves to solve the problem completely. And, frankly, developers like to code. It takes experience, and perhaps a certain kind of idiot savantishness, to reject code, to remove features. I'm still working on doing this, but I still feel like I'm ahead of the curve.
There are a few caveats to be mentioned. I don't know how much of the trouble here is caused by my refusal to consider complex needs; I'm personally willing to jettison 20% of people if I can fulfill the needs of the 80%. YMMV, especially if you're in that 20%. A number of buildbot users told me I was nuts for wanting to move to something simpler, that they couldn't conceive of using the system I described because they had more complex needs. Yes! You're right! Buildbot is awesome for all sorts of reasons! We need it! But it's a pain in the butt to install and configure out of the box, if all you need is something that downloads a tar.gz and calls 'python setup.py test'. I'm sure it drives people crazy to know that I want to rewrite yet another testing framework (twill is a rewrite of PBP; figleaf is a rewrite of coverage). But I'm going to guess that people will use ponybuild, if I can shave enough features off of it. And how often do you hear that kind of statement? ;)
Anyway, I'll conclude with this thought: extremism in the pursuit of simplicity is no vice!
Posted by dgou on 2009-04-03 at 23:14.
'twill developers want me to unpackage twill's dependencies from twill, and add features that make their lives easier. figleaf developers want to add another layer of features: flexible reporting, "depth" coverage, etc.' I get not adding features (and support that). I'm confused by the "unpackage twill's dependencies" part. Isn't decoupling dependencies a way to make software simpler? I'd like to hear your objections to that, specifically. Thanks!
Posted by Jack Diederich on 2009-04-03 at 23:27.
Your post tries to dance between framework-vs-libraries and ends up concluding "Well, I tried!" which is really all you can hope for. A variaton on "As simple as possible and no more." The distinction between small, reusable library parts and a bondage & discipline framework is pretty thin in practice. Unrelated: did you just out yourself as a classic liberal with the Goldwater paraphrase? We're tolerated at PyCon dinners but invited mainly as a curiosity.
Posted by Titus Brown on 2009-04-03 at 23:54.
Hey Doug, no, I think the answer is categorically not -- at least from the user or installer's perspective. First, you have to posit a packaging system that works 100%. easy_install doesn't. Second, you have to hope that the dependencies are all available in the right version, for as long as your package will be distributed. Third, you have to hope that the dependencies remain up to date with respect to patches. It's a bit much for me to ask mechanize to release a new version because there's a 2-line fix that some twill user needs. From the developer's perspective, of course, throwing more technology at the problem is always the answer ;) Which reminds me, I want to do a PyCon talk entitled "solving social problems with technology." Not sure what the actual topic would be, but it's a nice ironic title. --titus
Posted by Titus on 2009-04-04 at 00:33.
Jack, no particular reason for the quote -- just came up with it ;)
Posted by dgou on 2009-04-04 at 00:42.
Ah, excellent answer, it revealed a disconnect in the assumptions I was making and the ones you were making. I was not intending to imply that because the code was decoupled that the packaging had to be decoupled. I agree that packaging/install is a nightmare. I see the simple solution as saying something like: Twill is made up of these three parts: A, B, C. When you package/install twill, you get all three. However, internal code structure is simpler because you've de- hairballed A, B, and C from each other. Nice side benefit is that other folks might take any or all of them and build something else too. --doug
Posted by Michele Simionato on 2009-04-04 at 03:04.
+1000 Titus! I agree 100% with everything you say. I just want to add a point. Simplicity is not only a virtue for users, but even for module writers. Take for instance my decorator module. It contains more or less 100 lines of code, it has been used for years by thousands of people, and I had basically never had any complaint or bug to fix. It just works. No maintenance headache whatsoever. And this not because I am particular smart, but because it is difficult to get something wrong in 100 lines of code. I had only one a minor glitch when I bend to an user request and I added a functionality that I immediately removed in the next version, since it was not really necessary. Of course it is much more difficult to remove code than to add it, but it seems that people willing to make that effort are in the minority. Actually, most people do not even realize that less features is a feature in itself.
Posted by Noah Gift on 2009-04-04 at 04:21.
I had some similar thoughts here on packaging: <a href="http://artificialcode.blogspot.com/2009/03/dynamic-package- management.html">http://artificialcode.blogspot.com/2009/03/dynamic- package-management.html</a> I still completely miss the point of all of this "on the fly" configuration for end users, it is the source of untold pain and suffering, when a simple tar file works 100% of the time. On the ponybuild front, I do want one of those, because I like ponies :)
Posted by Titus Brown on 2009-04-04 at 10:13.
Doug, the internal structure of twill is pretty decoupled. That's just good programming, as you point out ;). Yes, I was using "unbundling" to mean "removing the packages from the distribution." Michele, +1000 backatcha ;) Noah, stop spamming my blog with links to yours! ;) (are you on planetpython?)
Posted by dgou on 2009-04-04 at 11:12.
Ok, got it now. Semi-off-topic: I wonder if anyone has tried a hierarchical packaging system where the packaging of a tool (say twill) can provide by subsumption the packaging of other entities (libraries), which are none-the-less defined independently of their subsumers. It seems there is a constant see-saw between "bundle everything together" (static linking) and "all dependencies are externally provided" (dynamic linking and DLL Hell on Windows). Middle ground there should be. "I would not give a fig for the simplicity this side of complexity, but I would give my life for the simplicity on the other side of complexity." --Oliver Wendel Holmes -doug (not quite willing to give life itself :) for simplicity)
Posted by Augie Fackler on 2009-04-04 at 13:31.
You make a very good point here. I've been extremely hesitant to add a library dependency for hgsubversion simply because I know the moment I do, it's going to be a source of headaches for people that (for whatever reason) can't get it installed. I suppose there's a flip side of this, when people want to depend on your code, but I guess there's nothing too terrible about having the "starter kit" which is a magical just-works download and also a "module version" which can depend on other libraries and so on.
Posted by Michael Foord on 2009-04-04 at 17:43.
Posted by Marius Gedminas on 2009-04-05 at 10:31.
I think you just answered one long-standing question of mine: why have figleaf (or coverage) when trace.py is already in the stdlib. I'm 99% behind your sentiment: simple things should be simple. However I'd also like complex things to be possible without ditching the simple solution and rewriting it from scratch. This point of view looks at software from the outside and ignores any internal complications that would be necessary to make complex things possible.
Posted by <em>Mark</em> on 2009-04-05 at 23:34.
I went to the windmill openspaces session, at least partly to make sure I got over the initial install hurdles - after a couple of failures with easy_install, someone suggested virtualenv + PIP, and it "just worked". That said, I always look for a debian package first :-) (that path also gets you nose, and twill, but not selenium or windmill...)
Posted by Titus Brown on 2009-04-06 at 00:22.
Marius, does 'trace.py' tell you which lines should have been executed?
Posted by Scott on 2009-04-06 at 17:25.
Wow, beautifully written, very simple, elegant and to the point.
Posted by Rams on 2009-04-08 at 14:20.
That Kernighan quote about debugging is w.r.t to the code that a programmer writes, it's at least 4 times as difficult with other people's code. This breadth vs depth issue finally boils down to one of taste. Programming is ultimately a design activity and taste makes a huge difference. Lots of brilliant programmers, startup founders, good users etc have bad taste. Doesn't twill have a plugin architecture that allows users to implement extensions ? Thx.
Posted by Titus Brown on 2009-04-08 at 22:49.
Rams: yes, it has a plugin arch.